Posts by D wiltshire

43

Fully Gifted Creation, No God of Gaps

by D wiltshire in

im leaning more and more towards a fully gifted creation.

i think god is so wise that when he first began "this" universe that he endowed it with tremendous organization potentiality, that would not require him to step in and guide it or help it along to produce intelligent life.. look at how scientist tell us all the elements are made in the stars, though nuclear fusion suns not only give us light and heat but also produce more complicated elements.

physicists tell us of wonderful self organization on the atomic and subatomic level.

D wiltshire

Logan,

I'm going to be plain and simple about the whole thing -- when I look at the incredible complexity and pure grandeur of the universe, I just don't see some tribal god of the Jews behind it all. Sure, there are parts of the Bible that are "deep" and poetic. And then there are parts that are primitive, contradictory and unrefined. You sound like you have a very good knowledge of science and I laud your introspective, philosophical mind. But, I just can't jump on the "Bible is in some way inspired" bandwagon.

You have to remember, the Bible is not "inspired writting" It was "men" who were inspired (there is a big difference) and so put it in word that expressed their concepts in their words with their style writting(common for that time). So if you get to know ancient history better you will better understand the Bible. People who wrote the Bible had a very vague idea of what the stars were, they didn't have telescopes, they didn't know what gravity was, they knew nothing about molecues and atoms, they had no idea that north and south America existed, knew very little about math(basic,primative), new nothing about the Pacific ocean, and many other thing we today take for granted, if you can remember that you might understand more. Try to be reasonable, and you might be very surprised.

I think the best and most honest way to look at the Bible is to take what it says at face value and not stretch it's meaning so as to correspond to modern scientific findings. When Genesis says God put Adam asleep and removed a rib from him which He formed into Eve I don't think it can be "interpreted" in any other way but literally. That's what the ancient Jews believed, so why cater it's meanings to our scientific understanding? Bradley

This part of Genesis can be translated very differently according to Hebrew scholars, I am told. But for sure the Jews had a wrong idea about God's creation, they would not read Genesis the same way we read it today, but still they would only have a faint idea of what really happened. Today we have science that is giving us more and more understanding of how God did it, back then they didn't have science and God told them very simply what he did, by inspiring a man that put it in his own words and concepts, that was the best way back then to do it. If you are too critical you won't see the beauty of it ever.

PS -- I'm sorry if my previous post was a little harsh sounding -- I could have chosen better words to get my point across.

If you were I completely forgot about it.

43

Fully Gifted Creation, No God of Gaps

by D wiltshire in

im leaning more and more towards a fully gifted creation.

i think god is so wise that when he first began "this" universe that he endowed it with tremendous organization potentiality, that would not require him to step in and guide it or help it along to produce intelligent life.. look at how scientist tell us all the elements are made in the stars, though nuclear fusion suns not only give us light and heat but also produce more complicated elements.

physicists tell us of wonderful self organization on the atomic and subatomic level.

D wiltshire

Derick,

The whole point of Occam's Razor ("Do not multiply entities unnecessarily") is to deal with probabilities. Any phenomenon can be explained in a variety of ways any of which may be true, but some explanations, while being no more useful than others, require more explanation in themselves. Your god is one such explanation. Adding him into the equation doesn't explain anything that can't be explained without him, it just makes everything more complicated.

I think we have to remember that Occam's Razor is not a absolute law of nature. If something doe not follow this wise saying does not mean anything for proving whether it is right or wrong.

Yes, the universe might in fact contain your god, just as a car might in fact be powered by an internal combustion engine and invisible fairies, but your god and the invisible fairies are irrelevant unless there's evidence that requires them or supports their existence.

Thank for being genereous enough to admit there "might be a God".

Dwr,

It is self-defeating, and not because of anything to do with time. If design requires a designer, who designed the designer? Did you not just establish that design requires a designer?

I don't recall "establishing" that a design requires a designer. I think a design can happen without an intelligence acting "directly" on something to make a design. If that's what you mean.

How can that not also apply to the designer? If it doesn't apply to the designer, then why can't it also not apply to the universe itself?

How does God make something out of nothing, I don't know. I don't think there is anyone who could ever "explain" God's eterenal existence satifactorily.

Some say there is no God they have there "reasons unprovable" just as some say there is a God and they have their "reasons unprovable". We all have "reasons unprovable" so take your pick. We use our intelligence the best we can on that one. Your "reasons" like my "reasons" are not rock solid. We simply do the best we can with what got.

In my opinion the observable facts seem to point to a "fully gifted creation". Other may disagree, and that's OK, but they must remember one thing they don't have is, conclusive proof that they are right. They can make beleive they are right but they can't prove they are right.

43

Fully Gifted Creation, No God of Gaps

by D wiltshire in

im leaning more and more towards a fully gifted creation.

i think god is so wise that when he first began "this" universe that he endowed it with tremendous organization potentiality, that would not require him to step in and guide it or help it along to produce intelligent life.. look at how scientist tell us all the elements are made in the stars, though nuclear fusion suns not only give us light and heat but also produce more complicated elements.

physicists tell us of wonderful self organization on the atomic and subatomic level.

D wiltshire

Ab,

Well, I can see you've done a lot of thinking Dwilt. However, your belief structure is currently largely pinned to the presuppositionalist structure you grew up with, which in turn is an accident of birth, and violates Occam's Razor. As you know, Occam's Razor states that if you have equal evidence the simplest explanation is probably true. Adding an inexplicable god doesn't make your explaination any simpler.

I notice the word "probably" true. So so how can you violate occam's razor since it states not a hard fast true rule but a probability.

Do you sincerely believe that god is partial and exclusive? Because if you'd been born a Hindu, I think you'd still be a Hindu.

I thinkyou are getting off track and into another unrelated subject.

Do you sincerely believe that you have succesfully doged the question of the origin of god? You seem to be putting the explaination into a special class of knowledge, just because you can't come up with an answer ("Time having a begining, could be used to explain it.", "I hope to understand it one day but not here inside time and space."), which is kind of convenient. Please realise that things happened before time, otherwise time could not have started, and thus your hope of doging the endless chain of designers required to validate your theory is just not on.

I'm only stating my opinion which like yours has its pro's and con's. I don't think you, I ,or any other human knows enough about time, to make such a conclusive statement as you have done in your last sentence.

Alan,

The notion that God exists outside time is convenient, but introduces serious philosophical problems. If past, present and future are all the same to God, then they must all exist 'simultaneously' in a higher order dimension. God must then be able to view all of time as a static structure, which means that all events were immutably fixed at the moment of the structure's creation. Thus, what we perceive as events are not events at all, but are merely the moving intersection of what we perceive as "the present" with the static structure of "time". Thus there is no free will since everything is static in a higher order dimension. But one of the foundations of Judeo-Christian philosophy is that free will exist. Thus the notion that God exists outside time contradicts strongly entrenched Biblical philosophy.

I think the Bible has little say about the nature of God to insinuate that he therefore could not exist outside time. The Bible uses metaphors, and speaks of God in the masculine, he has arms, eyes and not knowing something. I don't think these things are literal, but metaphors, the Bible has lots of these, it is rich in this type of language. One has to keep this in mind before making a supposed Bible doctrine. This is where fundy's and JW make their bigest blunders.

Corollary to the above is that God must perceive his own sort of "time", since our "present" is "moving" in some sense at a certain pace, and by definition such movement must take "time". If one then claims that God had no beginning in our spacetime, since he exists outside of it, the problem of God's beginning still exists since the referent is not our spacetime but God's own "time". I.e., in this special "time", just how did God come into existence? Again, putting this problem off as a mystery completely justifies putting off the problem of the naturalistic beginning of our spacetime as a mystery. In other words, the argument that "design requires a designer" is self-defeating.

I don't see it as self defeating. I see it as plausible, due to what we are now discovering about time. I don't ever suppose to be able to explain time (completely), all I know is it is not what it appears to be, Albert E. theorys make that plain and provable. Quantum physics, the subatomic world is nothing like the world at our scale, so why should God be tied down to the world at our scale or the universe for that matter.

43

Fully Gifted Creation, No God of Gaps

by D wiltshire in

im leaning more and more towards a fully gifted creation.

i think god is so wise that when he first began "this" universe that he endowed it with tremendous organization potentiality, that would not require him to step in and guide it or help it along to produce intelligent life.. look at how scientist tell us all the elements are made in the stars, though nuclear fusion suns not only give us light and heat but also produce more complicated elements.

physicists tell us of wonderful self organization on the atomic and subatomic level.

D wiltshire

Gum,

Can you give a REASONABLE answer to any of the questions I asked you? I realise there are no answers to some things......but an attempt would help.

I can't give you what "you" would call reasonable, I can only give what "I" consider reasonable. This term reasonable is very subjective. My reasons would be we can't always understand God he is way beyond our intellect. When he communicates to us through the Bible I beleive, he is using "baby talk", just as your mom or dad when explaining something to you when you were 2, that is how I think God speaks to us through the Bible. I think this book is full of metaphors, that are only a faint shadow of reality. It is just like someone who lived in a 2 dimensional world (flat land) he could understand squares and circles, but would have a hard time understanding someone from our 3 dimensional world as we talked about cubes and speres. We would have a hell of a time trying to explain the extra dimension to them. If we talked about a cube, we could tell them that it is made of 6 squares and that they all make one cube or we could say cubes have an infinite number of squares to them. Even though we've seemed to contradict ourselves we would be telling the truth to this "flat lander" in fact we would understand a square much better than he would because of our know 3 dimensions. The flat lander can only grasp the faintest shadow of what we are talking about.

This is the way I veiw God communication to us, we have a hard time grasping the reality of it all, in fact I don't think we ever will in this life.

Also.....I understand your thinking this way as I too reasoned this way, but after comparing God for what he is supposed to be........with the way THINGS are.....it does not jive.

See above.

To think there is no creator is a hard thing to grasp and is something I also am not convinced of yet. However the God of the bible went out the window with me. He's a mean biggoted prick.

We all have our opinions, and I understand where you are comming from. I would only suggest don't be too hasty, to form a concrete opinion. Leave a little room for changing your mind if new thoughts on the subject come your way.

43

Fully Gifted Creation, No God of Gaps

by D wiltshire in

im leaning more and more towards a fully gifted creation.

i think god is so wise that when he first began "this" universe that he endowed it with tremendous organization potentiality, that would not require him to step in and guide it or help it along to produce intelligent life.. look at how scientist tell us all the elements are made in the stars, though nuclear fusion suns not only give us light and heat but also produce more complicated elements.

physicists tell us of wonderful self organization on the atomic and subatomic level.

D wiltshire

Gum,

I could be in denial, but denial of what? There is no absolute proof either way, only more questions that beg answers.

Ab,

Obviously, god cannot be disproved. That is different from god existing. I frimly believe if it mattered we would KNOW, there would be no doubt - any other scenario puts god in a very dodgy situation as regards fairness.

That is your opinion, which God gave you the right to have. I know I'm presuming here.

Of course, god doesn't have to be fair. But the idea god is unfair is illogical, and if it turns out that way €uck it, a despot is a despot and I won;t live under a despot.

I agree God could be the meanest person in existence, and there would be nothing we could do about it.He could torture us everyday with pain that is more gruesome than we can even imagine, and make it impossible to ever get any relief for an eternity, and laugh with delight at every cry we make for mercy, and if we say anything disrespectful increase the pain. Lets be glad he's not a despot, because it wouldn't matter what you choose he would over ride it.

The possibility that we are actually not important to whatever created the Universe (if it was created) seems to be a option that few people consider; just as most human ideas of god are very petty and anthromoporhic, so to the idea that we MUST matter seems a rather arrogant assumption in the absemnce of any firm proof.

That's why I think Jesus is God, for I think it gives the clearest(possible) reason to beleive God is Love. In that he came down to this universe, became (wholly)man(with all the limitations) and suffered with us, beyond what the average man suffers, for our sins. God being beyond our time and space, entered into it to show his love for us in a very tangible way, I think is about the sincerest expession will towards us. Of coarse this is just my beleif, and is subject to refutation and correction for none is provable, I just have faith that this is close to what is reality.

And finally, as you have learnt over the past few year Dwilt, it really is quite possible the Universe has got to where it is via naturalistic processes without divine guidance; I know you've not always thought this. How it actually started is moot, but if it's possible that once it's running it works as cosmological and evolutiuonary theories generally define, there is another possibility. No god. That the Universe came into being via exotic physical processes, but still naturalistic ones.

That is harder for me to imagine, than a all wise God creating the universe. As you know Time has a begining. Beleif in a God who transcends time seems more believable, to me than just unitelligent purely natural(that word can have so many meaning, your contexts is the meaning meant here) cause.

This requires no more belief than in there being a designer, as the designer immediately gets us into a situation where a designer must be explained, and their designer must be explained, etc..

Time having a begining, could be used to explain it. Albert E. suggested that the difference in past, present, and future is just an illusion. Time is an invention of God, for us in this universe, I hope to understand it one day but not here inside time and space.

43

Fully Gifted Creation, No God of Gaps

by D wiltshire in

im leaning more and more towards a fully gifted creation.

i think god is so wise that when he first began "this" universe that he endowed it with tremendous organization potentiality, that would not require him to step in and guide it or help it along to produce intelligent life.. look at how scientist tell us all the elements are made in the stars, though nuclear fusion suns not only give us light and heat but also produce more complicated elements.

physicists tell us of wonderful self organization on the atomic and subatomic level.

D wiltshire

Alba,

Tell me, what do you think of this: Psalm 19:4 "Into all the earth their measuring line has gone out. And to the extremity of the productive land their utterances. In them he has set a tent for the sun, 5 and it is like a bridegroom when coming out of his nuptial chamber; it exults as mighty man does to run in a path. 6 From one extremity of the heavens is its going forth, and its (finished) circuit is to their (other) extremities; and there is nothing concealed from its heat."

I don't know as this can be proven scientifically, but it is accurate, it is poetic, and there is more understanding between its lines than in the sum of its words. I don't believe the Bible was written to be proven in a scientific way, as much as to be felt in the heart. To lead men of heart into the very knowledge of God.

I agree there is much poetry in the Bible, and many forget this and so draw wrong conclusions. I think even some of the Genesis may be written in that style. Too many people read it with a 20th century mind and forget writting was invented only 5000 years ago and styles have changed. Concepts were very different 5000-3500 years ago. The flood of Noah time many take it to mean a globe incircleing, but just alittle thinking tells you Noah didn't have a clue about the earths size or anything.

These are my personal findings, others may choose to argue or disagree, it matters not; for we are here today and gone tomorrow.

I think you are on the right track.

Gum,

Lets say a creator god "started" it......and we have what we now have. OK......so what? Where is he now? If you created something and saw it turn to shit.......would you fix it or say......"well, I did my part....now they can learn to fix it". If he is a god like that he's an asshole. He knows we fail at stuff and get diseases and that religion kills people. Has he told us how to fix it? Why yes you say.....through Jesus. Yes.....things are very pleasant today because of him.....which by the way, is why you and I are here....because of him.Want to deny it?

I don't think things have turned to shit, things are just the way God has figured them to be, you and I don't fully understand what he is doing. We can only guess, I rather trust him for I feel confident he is Love. Sure we have pain and suffering, it is uncomfortable but that doesn't mean these things are totally bad, I think a lot of good will come out of our experiences of these unpleasant thing that you or I can't fully comprehend.

Drw,

I suggest not falling into the trap of attributing things to a supernatural being that we cannot currently explain or easily understand. Ancient people blamed lightning, earthquakes, rain, etc., on supernatural beings because they had no idea what caused those events. Once we have a firm scientific understanding of something, it takes the mystery out of it and it seems silly to continue to attribute such things to a god

I don't think science will ever be used to prove there is or isn't a God. So your use of "scientific understanding" to disprove God is something science can not do.

. Think about this: does it seem more reasonable that "at the very beginning" there was only the most primitive forms of matter, or that there was some supernatural, all powerful being?

You lost me here. SS,

'Course my theory can't be proved either. I gather that in your search, you are using your intellect, interacting w researches. In the search for god, many mystics have found that after they have looked everywhere, they finally find god inside themselves. If the fractal universe theory holds any water, then this is possible. A meditation practice opens up a large inner space (as a mirror to the huge outer space you have been pondering)

I have read the writtings of some mystics and found them very interesting, and enjoyable. I think that they are right you can't even come close to explaining God presents, and the sense of sight, or any of our earthly senses can ever be of use to expereince him as he truely is. We can't do it with our mind either IMO, we need a different type of existance to see him as he truely is.

43

Fully Gifted Creation, No God of Gaps

by D wiltshire in

im leaning more and more towards a fully gifted creation.

i think god is so wise that when he first began "this" universe that he endowed it with tremendous organization potentiality, that would not require him to step in and guide it or help it along to produce intelligent life.. look at how scientist tell us all the elements are made in the stars, though nuclear fusion suns not only give us light and heat but also produce more complicated elements.

physicists tell us of wonderful self organization on the atomic and subatomic level.

D wiltshire

Logan,

How so? I don't see the order matching at all. Genesis 1 has light appearing before the sun is created and birds and fish being created at the same time -- even though fish evolved, then reptiles (and possibly some mammels), then birds. But Genesis says that all land-creatures were created after the birds, which contradicts the fossil record.

That is your intrepretation of Genesis I have a different one.

Plus, in chapter 2 of Genesis we have a totally different account of creation which has man being created before all the other animals and plants!

Again that is your interpretation not mine.

So in no way does the Genesis account -- or should I say accounts -- in Genesis match the scientific findings of the fossil record.

Interpretation.

43

Fully Gifted Creation, No God of Gaps

by D wiltshire in

im leaning more and more towards a fully gifted creation.

i think god is so wise that when he first began "this" universe that he endowed it with tremendous organization potentiality, that would not require him to step in and guide it or help it along to produce intelligent life.. look at how scientist tell us all the elements are made in the stars, though nuclear fusion suns not only give us light and heat but also produce more complicated elements.

physicists tell us of wonderful self organization on the atomic and subatomic level.

D wiltshire

St. Satan,

So, you are basically saying that god made the universe so that it could organise itself into gas clouds, stars, planets, ecosystems, animals, humans etc. Is that correct?

Yes, I guess that is as basiclly as I would say it. Completely self organizing. I think God could have very well made have made many universes, there's no way to know. The wisdom i see in this one causes me to guess that he is beyond our ability to comprehend. I always thought the WT put God in a very small box. I mean how do you describe someone who exist outside of time and space. I think that one of the great joys of those whom he takes to himself is that they shall "see" him as he really is, which is imposible to describe to creatures who live inside time and space.

Now what if the universe started out w the potential, as you say, but there was not a god as we commonly concieve it? What if there was just preexisting potential which separated itself into positive and negative, or started vibrating, creating highs and lows (waves) that look like the background noise of the universe. That is, the universe went from a state of being isotropic ( http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=isotropic) toward a chaos pattern, then grew from there. That illiminates god. Not that i'm atheist, or anything. Maybe gods evolve too.

I can't prove you wrong, but I think God is a real personality, the "Ultimate Fact" but to prove it I think you would have to get out of this universe, in a diferent existance.

43

Fully Gifted Creation, No God of Gaps

by D wiltshire in

im leaning more and more towards a fully gifted creation.

i think god is so wise that when he first began "this" universe that he endowed it with tremendous organization potentiality, that would not require him to step in and guide it or help it along to produce intelligent life.. look at how scientist tell us all the elements are made in the stars, though nuclear fusion suns not only give us light and heat but also produce more complicated elements.

physicists tell us of wonderful self organization on the atomic and subatomic level.

D wiltshire

Logan,

D wiltshire, What evidence or reason do you have that God inspired the Genesis account?

While no one can produce evidence that absolutely proves or disproves God existance. I will say the same about Genesis as well. My reasons for beleiving genesis are: God does exist because of the vast order i see and that something doesn't come from nothing. So when I see the order of creation as found in Genesis matching the order that Scientist say occured it gives me reason to beleive. While it is not conclusive it is sufficient for me.

Star,

. All human intervention has been completely unsuccessful in helping this "fully gifted creation" produce life through the natural processes required.

While that may be true, it is not the same as billions of years that is need for this fully gifted creation to bring about what a timeless God foreodained.

43

Fully Gifted Creation, No God of Gaps

by D wiltshire in

im leaning more and more towards a fully gifted creation.

i think god is so wise that when he first began "this" universe that he endowed it with tremendous organization potentiality, that would not require him to step in and guide it or help it along to produce intelligent life.. look at how scientist tell us all the elements are made in the stars, though nuclear fusion suns not only give us light and heat but also produce more complicated elements.

physicists tell us of wonderful self organization on the atomic and subatomic level.

D wiltshire

Rem,

I clicked on your address and took a brief look.

I can't say with certainty but, I would not rule out that God has given visions to other people not of hebrew decent. If he did as time went on, I'm sure it got corrupted. After all he is their creator too, why should he not comunicate in some way fro there good.